Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Ricardo Bravo.

Introduction to Let's Talk

Asher: You're listening to Let's Talk. Let's Talk is a digital space for students at PCC experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of Portland Community College, PCC Foundation, or our community partners. Be broadcast on our home website, pcc.edu/dca, on Spotify, on X-Ray 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM, and KBOO community radio 90.7 FM.

Meet the Guests: Mackenzie and Amanda

Amanda: Thank you for joining me on today's podcast, Mackenzie. I really am looking forward to this conversation and I'm hoping we'll have a great time like last time.

Mackenzie: Thank you for having me, Amanda. I look forward to this conversation as well.

Amanda: I felt like I needed to go into that weird intro mode, even though we're not even doing a formal intro. I don't know why I did that.

Mackenzie: It's okay. I loved your intros by the way the ones you reported on your own. I think that's a perfect way to go about it if we need to. It is hard to get it going when it is a formal conversation.

Amanda: Yeah, totally. 

 

Mackenzie's Journey with ADHD and Autism

Amanda: So I guess to start off I'm just gonna go ahead and ask for introductions, like what's your name, preferred pronouns, major slash occupation, whether you have ADHD, Autism, or both, and how long ago you were diagnosed.

Mackenzie: Hi, I'm Mackenzie, my pronouns are they/them. I am a disabled student at PCC in the ASL English interpreting program. I'm also working towards a Deaf cultural studies certificate. I also work as a student accessibility advocate for the Office of Accessible and Disability Resources. And I am a membership coordinator for Delta Alpha Pi, It's an honor society for students with disabilities. PCC adopted this chapter a couple years ago so it's still very new so you don't know about it and if you're interested in getting involved, please let me know. We are inducting new members very soon. So I just wanted to throw that out there because it isn't very good. In terms of ADHD and autism, I was diagnosed with ADHD at age 19. I have not been officially diagnosed with autism, but it has been something I have been actively exploring, with my medical and mental health providers and doing a lot of self research and it's something that I identify with. That's why I'm also on here today to talk about that journey to coming to this place.

Amanda: Thank you. 

 

Amanda's Experience with Autism

Amanda: As for me, my name is Amanda. I use she/her pronouns. I'm finishing up an animal science degree at Oregon State with a pre veterinary option, and I'm planning to apply to vet school next year. Hopefully I get in this time. And I was actually just diagnosed with Autism at age 31, so my diagnosis was very recent.I'm not a part of, like, the Alpha Delta Pi, I'm sorry if I said that wrong. 

Mackenzie: Alpha Pi, yeah.

Amanda: I see it heavily advertised on PCC's website, but I've never really given it much thought. I just don't have the time or mental space for it, to be honest, kind of mirroring what Mackenzie said, for anyone who's interested, check them out.

Mackenzie: On the topic of how I got involved with the student advocacy for disabled students, it actually started with Delta Alpha Pi randomly showed up to a meeting because I had talked about it and I had gotten emails about it and, all of a sudden I was elected, I put my name in the, ring to be a part of the executive board this past year. That's how I got into student advocacy work. So it's been an amazing opportunity to get connected with other disabled students. Cause that's something I felt very lack of connection and opportunity for at PCC. So I really am passionate about creating community and more opportunities for  students to connect and be involved. I wouldn't be here today if it hadn't been for Delta Alpha Pi and it was just a very random occurrence. So I definitely want to spread the word because I do think it's important for disabled students to be honored and recognized. And even if you aren't disabled and passionate about disability advocacy you're welcome to come to meetings, and there are criteria for joining but. You can come even if you're working towards membership. It's a very welcoming space.

Amanda: I was just recruited randomly into student advocacy by one of the managers. So, going back to the conversation, I apologize. 

 

The Role of Gender in ADHD and Autism

Amanda: How would you say your assigned gender at birth influenced your ADHD diagnosis?

Mackenzie: It's a hard question to answer. I feel like a lot of these questions today are difficult to answer because it is hard to separate the different pieces of your identity, right? There's that concept of intersectionality. Everything kind of overlaps into one experience. You can't really separate those pieces out, but coming into these diagnoses over the years has really helped me feel a lot more at home and comfortable in myself and my experience and able to express that to the world. So I think growing up, I've talked about this a lot of being high masking and given that assigned gender at birth, which for me was female. The world just puts all these expectations on you and you're spoon fed all these things that you're supposed to do and supposed to look like and supposed to be. As an autistic person growing up with that, I think there was a lot of comfort, to some degree, in staying in that space of. Okay, these people are telling me I'm a woman, right? Or a girl. And I need to fit into that in order to be accepted by the world. A lot of autistic people have very black and white thinking and need very binary sort of rules to some degree, just to keep themselves safe because there's so much to navigate in the world. I think there was a lot of safety in that, even though I remember having. These conversations with myself about gender as young as three years old, like as long as I can remember. I wanted to be one of the boys, but I also wanted to be girly. I just didn't really want to be either. I didn't want to have these expectations put on me and I didn't think that there was a reason for it. But, the world reinforces that of what is acceptable and what is not. I also have been discussing a lot about, puberty lately and just how traumatic puberty is for most people, especially those that have any sort of gender dysphoria, like, issues with their assigned gender, I've been reflecting on that period of time a lot because that's when, most of my mental health symptoms started for me and where things really started to take a turn and just in general that time of my life was very traumatic. It really does have to do with the fact that I didn't identify with the expectation and the rules of what was expected of women and females in our society. So when puberty happened, all of a sudden my body is now changing. I have to fit into this thing. I have to find a way to fit into this way of being. It just led to a lot of issues. I was diagnosed with PMDD, which is extremely debilitating. It's so hard to go through those hormone cycles every month and being extremely suicidal. It irritates all of my sensory sensitivities. It takes away my brain function. Activates a lot of my chronic health issues. And to constantly have to go through these ups and downs every month, it's extremely hard to just do anything. And when you do identify as nonbinary and you still have to deal with that every month. It really activates a lot of gender dysphoria as well. In general, assigned gender at birth in relation to diagnoses such as autism, ADHD, can lead to a lot of feelings of being stuck and not really knowing what to do. 

 

Navigating Gender Identity and Mental Health

Mackenzie: For me coming out as queer nonbinary happened before I started. Discussing Autism and that feeling of coming to home within myself, trusting my experience, trusting my feelings. That really led me to the place of digging deeper into my chronic health issues and making that connection to my mental health issues. With Autism and then also only seeking out providers that offer gender affirming care and when you're talking with providers making sure that they do respect your gender identity and whatever diagnoses that you have. If you ever feel like you leave those appointments and your gut is just like. Ooh, I feel really disrespected. Then get out of there because it's really important to have that connection to those pieces of your identity, especially when it comes to medical health care and mental health care.

Amanda: Thank you. I feel like you actually answered like number three with that too. I didn't realize there was a lot of crossover with these questions when I came up with them. Because they're separate in my mind, but hearing answers to them. You can answer multiple questions at once. There's no reason not to, to add my own two cents and just respond to what you said, my assigned gender at birth. Definitely. I'm a cis, binary female, so it definitely did affect my autism process. I know I've talked about this on previous podcast episodes, it's because Autism and ADHD for the longest time were just thought of as a boy specific thing, or very rarely happened in girls, unless if it really severe, that it's like, I was just not diagnosed when I should have been, despite my mother taking me to three different experts. I'm just never gonna forget that and just how they dismissed her and me. How they screwed over not my entire childhood, but really the huge majority of it. Let's all be honest there. I just know if I had been born as a boy, I definitely would have been diagnosed probably before I was in kindergarten, based on the stories I've heard about my childhood. In terms of when I started puberty, I'm just going to respond a little bit to what you said, cause I was kind of going in and out there for a bit as you talked enough, sorry. 

Mackenzie: Go for it.

Amanda: Things I do remember you said, I remember being annoyed when puberty started for me. My breast development was fair, I don't know. I want to say moderate, not overly quick, not really sudden, not too slow. I remember being really annoyed when periods started because it's like, great, I have to deal with this now. One thing I really do love about how my mom raised me and my sister is the fact that she never raised us with gender expectations. I promise you if I had been born a boy, or if I had a brother. I would have had the same chores regardless. She never discriminated based on gender, we would have had the same responsibilities regardless. And she never raised me and my sister to be housewives or career women. She wanted us to explore what we wanted and what we were passionate about. And that's just something I think my mom did a really good job on. So I never grew up with those gender expectations or trying to fit into a box just because I was already ostracized by most of my peers and authority figures anyways, that I just never felt those expectations. Or maybe they were there and I just didn't care. I just never was expected by them the same way. A lot of people were, just because of my general indifference towards them. I think you kind of answered this already, but if you wanted to add anything. How would you say your gender identity influences your optimism or ADHD? Do you feel like people take your condition more or less seriously because of your gender identity?

Mackenzie: This one goes kind of back to what I was talking about with the aspects of your identity being hard to separate that piece of intersectionality. There really are so many aspects to everybody's individual identity and how they identify culturally and personally in the world. It's really hard to separate those experiences from each other and not just the experience of the person as a whole. There's a ton of layers to that. Let me just read the question again. 

Amanda: I can answer the question first if you want some time.

Mackenzie: Okay, hold on. Okay, got it. I think a big piece to my gender identity and coming into home with that was I think a lot of people also associate gender identity with gender expression and they don't have to correlate their different entities and so I think the biggest piece for me was. I don't try towards any sort of gender expression. I come into a place where I will do what I'm comfortable doing, comfortable wearing. Just be myself as authentically as possible and I've noticed out in the world, even when I do. I'm feeling very, just, I keep forgetting the word I'm looking for. Nonbinary, like what's the word where you're feeling very like neither feminine nor masculine. 

Amanda: I'm not sure if this is the right word, but the word that comes to mind is ambiguous.

Mackenzie: Yeah, sure. I think there's a very similar word in my mind that I'm looking for. But yeah, when I'm feeling very ambiguous and I go out into the world looking that way too. People are still so quick to gender me as female and it's kind of frustrating to me in those moments. I don't know, I don't know why, but it just is. And so, along those lines, I feel like when you identify as nonbinary, people are just going to question your experiences no matter what. They are like, you don't really know who you are. Everything is kind of like a question. I'm not saying that from the perspective of the queer community and people that identify as nonbinary. I'm talking more about the neurotypical, average people who haven't reflected on their experiences with the world being a spectrum. So In general, things are taken less seriously with people that don't understand gender identity, gender expression, ADHD, Autism, chronic health conditions, disability, and all of the overlapping intersections of identity. Yeah, I think that answers the question right.

Amanda: Yeah like I said, two and three were pretty similar so sorry about that. I'm very indifferent to my gender identity because I just see it as I happen to inherit enough biomarkers that I have secondary female characteristics. I just never cared that I'm female. So I identify as female but I also don't feel like I'm not female. And I'm not sure where this comes from but I've never had problems separating different parts of my identity at all. I'm really proud of my autism identity. I talk about that a lot more than mainly leaning towards women or the fact that I'm female. Like the Autism thing is the one I'm the most passionate about. Other parts of me I've mentioned, it's like, they're a part of me. I'm not ashamed of them but I don't feel the need to shout them across the world. And I'm not sure if that comes from the fact that I don't need to justify myself in terms of my gender identity like you do. Or I don't feel like I need to get into arguments with people and it's not like I'm trying to say you're argumentative. But I think that's where it comes from because people are just used to seeing gender as a binary thing in a wider context. You and other nonbinary people are probably in a position where you have to essentially justify your existence, if that doesn't sound too terrible.

Mackenzie: No, I'm happy that you express that because I think to some degree I can relate to what you said as well. There is a ton of care deep down about how I display it to the world, how people perceive me, and also about getting it right because I know there's a ton of people out there who are going to get it wrong. It's taken me a lot of years to come to a place of accepting my body in taking up space in this world as it is. And not wanting to change my body per se, to accept all of the experiences that happen to it. So it's very hard to deny my anatomy and what it does, right? Like I do have female anatomy and a lot of things that I experience are related to that. So it's hard to separate my experience from that. In terms of correcting people when they misgender me, I often don't do that. That really comes down to a lot of rejection, just sensitive dysphoria, and I don't think I should always have to defend myself. Like I said, I know who I am and I feel comfortable in myself. So it doesn't matter that people do misgender me, but when I am gendered correctly, it just feels so amazing. It feels great when people finally do respect you or even ask you about it. I try not to make a big deal about my experience and how other people relate to that experience. It doesn't really matter what other people think. As long as I feel comfortable in my existence and gloss between the thoughts, but go ahead. 

Amanda: Yeah, I kind of relate to the next question. I wonder what I'm going to do with these because they're so similar. I'm just going to interweave them into your responses and my responses. That actually makes for a better conversation.

Mackenzie: Totally. And if there's a little piece in those questions where you want to add to the conversation.

Amanda: Yeah.

Mackenzie: That direction, go ahead and put those pieces in there.

Amanda: All right, So, you mentioned that you were seeking an Autism diagnosis or you're heavily researching it. 

 

Seeking an Autism Diagnosis

Amanda: Are you already anticipating your assigned gender at birth is going to influence how doctors, psychiatrists, or other professionals are going to treat you?

Mackenzie: That's a good question. And you know, at the beginning of the year, I was really trying to seek out resources for a formal assessment. I'm at this place in my life where I'm not sure if I will do that formal assessment yet. Just because I found mental health care providers that also identify as queer, autistic, ADHD, and feel very privileged and lucky to have Oregon health plan cover that care for me every week. Some things that my doctor has told me this past year really kind of questioned whether or not I still want to do that because it is a huge stressor. It's a big financial cost. Even if you can find resources, there's just a lot of work that goes into making that happen. One of the things my doctor said was, she just doesn't doubt that this is a diagnosis for me. Based on my experiences from young childhood to now, both in regards to physical health and the experience of myself and my brain functioning, however you want to describe it. Is that you just have to learn to live well with Autism? A big part of my journey, especially since our last conversation has been researching how to do that and how to learn to live well with autism in this world that is not set up to support us. I very much come to understand a lot of my experiences and have been able to dig into a lot of those autistic pieces. Experience and understand how to be myself and honor those aspects of my identity without shame. That was a big thing too, like, if you need to have a meltdown, if you need to stimulate and pace around. Do what you need to do to regulate yourself, to not have shame about it and do it because it does help regulate you. And I think that the nervous system is a big part of health. It is with anybody. We live in a very, very high stress world. Especially when you're living with Autism, that constant activation of your nervous system, your peripheral nervous system? I always forget them.

Amanda: If you're talking about the sensory input, then yeah, that would be peripheral. You're right.

Mackenzie: Yeah. During spring break, I read a book on masking Autism and if anybody out there is. Even autistic or you're thinking you might be autistic and you've done a lot of research. Like I've done a lot of assessments in different periods of my life, just out of curiosity, like the online assessments. And I've never gotten a result, even if I answer the questions differently that were neurotypical. That's another piece too, the results of those assessments have very much been yes, you probably are autistic.

Amanda: You mind if I'd jump in here to add my two cents and maybe that'll help you.

Mackenzie: Yes, please.

Amanda: Yeah, like I said, I'm already diagnosed with autism and obviously can't comment on the diagnostic journey. I will say that my journey was very prompt. I literally just went to therapy a couple of times. I think it was just three sessions in and my therapist finally asked me: Are you diagnosed with autism? and I was like: well, no, but I suspect I am. And my mother in law has definitely brought that up. She's like: you need to get diagnosed. I'm certain you're autistic but you need an official diagnosis. And I think I mentioned this to you where I went to three appointments and not one because that was just standard procedure. She said she immediately knew I was autistic so I'm not sure what it is about me. But I don't wear a mask at all. I never have. I don't have the patience for it or the mental energy to do it. We just have different responses and coping mechanisms. And my responses were to be indifferent or fight.

Mackenzie: Mm-hmm

Amanda: It gets frustrating though. Cause it's like, I have to almost spell words out just to get my point across. I'm not sure if it's just a miscommunication or if I'm not being clear with what I'm saying. But I've been in so many conversations where I try to explain my needs and people just don't get it. So I find, like a tech, works really well when trying to explain my needs and how to accommodate me. One thing I do is that I think of real life examples to illustrate a struggle. I think I mentioned this one to you where it's like climbing up an ice mountain with a pickaxe. I'm not a rock climber.

Mackenzie: I think that's right, I don't know.

Amanda: They look like pickaxes. I don't know what they're actually called. Point is, you're trying to climb up a sheet of ice on a mountain with very little equipment, and you have no backup, and basically someone is up there just telling you to hurry up. I've compared meltdowns to internal volcanoes. For whatever reason, when you use extreme illustrations like that, people at the very least do tend to be more receptive and real looks of realization dawn on them. Recently, I explained the dehumanizing process of DAS at Oregon State and how frustrating and traumatizing it was seeking accommodations from them. And when I finally explained to someone, this would be me telling you to turn off your hearing aids because I think you can read my lips well enough. Or I think you should be able to sign.

Mackenzie: Yeah.

Amanda: I know that sounds horrible, especially to you, and I apologize about that because I know you're hard of hearing and I would never say this to you and I would never assume this about you. But it's just that dismissive. I think I'm doing you a favor by forcing you to come to my level. When you put something like that into context where it applies to them, that look of realization where they're just realized how ableist they're being towards you finally switches on.

Mackenzie: I had written about this recently. It's not that I'm asking you to completely change everything for me. I am just asking you to consider that people get to different places in different ways. There has to be some understanding of that. It's not about doing something differently. It's about, I can't remember what I wrote. But, you really do have to illustrate the struggle for people. That's the goal, right? To be just like everybody else, to survive in this world. When you don't have the tools that you need, it's impossible to get there. And I don't think that there is this one way of living. And because anybody else falls outside of that, they're not welcome. You talked about how it's really hard for you to do math. I've always been a very cognitive person, so I've been able to explain my way out of things very well. Even though it's not true to my experience. And that was the process of going through mental health care for the past 10 years. Someone pointed it out to me a few years ago. And I was like, you're right. I will talk and cognate myself out of my body experiences. I have never been connected to my body. And I think that ties a lot into gender dysphoria as well, but I've always felt this huge disconnection to my body. I've always wanted to be invisible because the experience of my body in the world did not match my internal experience. And it's always been confusing and making it really hard to navigate the world. So learning how to be present in my body, honoring whatever it's asking for and understanding that it's probably right because my brain likes to talk me out of anything. So, try and listen to that because when you do ignore your body, it's literally screaming at you and you have to shut down for a few days. Honor whatever it is that you're needing and then you can come back into the world and be able to navigate. But when you're asking me to mask and hide the things that I am needing to do to regulate myself, it takes extraordinary amounts of energy and just everything out of me to be able to do that. When I'm constantly giving that away to other people, I'm left with nothing for myself and I don't get to engage in my special interests. I don't get to feed those parts of me that make me feel whole. In the end, what good is that doing? I feel like I do have a lot to offer to the world and I am a valuable person, but when I'm not able to feed those good parts. I just have to show up and be this very, small portion of myself. Survival mode. I'm a capitalist and a high needs person. I have to have a roof over my head, food and things that support my sensory needs. So at the end of the day, I have to give myself up for survival mode and then I'm constantly fighting for my health. It's just a vicious cycle so yeah.

Amanda: I totally hear you. Alright, so number five actually is a little different than the last few questions.  

 

Intersection of Autism, ADHD, and Gender Identity

Amanda: How would you say your Autism or ADHD intersects with your gender identity, and would you also say that your ADHD and potential Autism become more in touch with your gender identity, or would you say it made it more difficult?

Mackenzie: So I think I touched on that a little bit earlier. But I really came into my gender identity first and then came into my autistic identity. It very much relates back to what I mentioned earlier in terms of the black and white thinking and needing to have these rigid ways of navigating the very confusing world. So with the autistic part, It's very hard when you've lived as this female version for many years, and now even though I know that I am non-binary and this is how I want to navigate the world. It can be very hard when you don't have that framework to pull from what it's like to exist in the world as that person's representation. Seeing things throughout your life along the way like, it's okay to be different. I always tell people about the experience of my family. Growing up, my aunt was lesbian. And I remember being very young and not really understanding that, but not being afraid to ask about it. I remember asking my mom, I was like, is Debbie a boy or a girl? And my mom was like, she's a girl, but she also dates girls. And thinking that is so cool. I want to be like that, you know what I mean? and just thought my family was accepting of that. I'm like, if I didn't have that as a young kid, I wouldn't have discovered that till a little bit later. That acceptance of being yourself and she actually passed, when I was five, but I still think about her. She's still such a big part of my life like I remember her joy, her smile, and that feeling that she made me feel when I was younger. And I think about representation in general, when we're not exposed to ways of being that are different from what is most broadly accepted in the world, it's very hard to know. I first learned about non-binary gender identity and gender expression when I was a freshman in college. And as soon as I heard about it, I was like, that explains my experience growing up so much. I would remember feeling guilty and I was like, I don't want to claim that as my identity because I don't know. I just don't know a lot about it. So then I spent the next 10 years doing this internal reflection and self analysis, and realizing that I am worthy of holding that identity and I am worthy of community. That is still hard to navigate. Even though I identify as non-binary, there's still a lot I have to learn. I also came to this point of understanding with myself during COVID when I was very isolated and I got in touch with myself. So, it's been very hard to get connected with the community since COVID. That's also something that isn't talked about a lot, that social anxiety of navigating new communities, new spaces. And when you are chronically ill and constantly worried about getting COVID again because of how much that did impact my life, how much it aggravated a lot of my chronic health and added to the burden that I have to deal with every day. It's hard to find community when you're constantly worried about everything, and the rules of the world are always changing and that can be another source of social anxiety. 

Amanda: I'm sorry to cut you off, but I just really have to comment on something. When you brought up your aunt, and how you were exposed to a lesbian relationship when you were a kid, I just really want to respond before I lose the thought, I'm sorry.

Mackenzie: Interrupt me whenever, or otherwise I'll just keep going on and on.

Amanda: I feel bad, I'm sorry. I go on and on too, so feel free to interrupt me as well. To be honest, in terms of my sexual preferences or sexuality I'm kind of reluctant to actually identify because I just don't care. I lean mainly towards women, but I didn't know that for the longest time. I don't remember homophobia in my family at all, but the thing is, outside of male female relationships, it wasn't talked about. No other types of relationships were talked about, so I never knew it was a possibility of having a crush on a girl throughout my formative years, elementary, middle, and high school. I remember being drawn to girls specifically, but because I was never looking back on it, they probably were crushes. I never thought I even had a crush because I just didn't find anyone attractive. Or at least the idea of attractiveness that I was presented as a kid. Even with my wife, again, I do mainly lean towards women, but because it was never talked about, that realization never really struck me. There was never this big coming out moment in my family or really anyone. In fact, I think my sister just asked me to confirm at the dinner table one day and yeah, that's a thing with me. And she's like, okay, It just isn't a big deal to me. The end goal is the same when you have a relationship, whether it's intimacy, whether it's sex, why does it actually matter?

Mackenzie: Yeah.

Amanda: And I think that's interesting growing up because I was never exposed to, nonbinary though, in different ways through media. My first exposure to non-binary was, have you heard of the series Cardcaptor Sakura?

Mackenzie: No.

Amanda: Okay, so it's a clamp manga and anime. There's this character later on named Ruby who the author point blank states is neither male nor female even though they look female, very female. Even when I was reading that I was like, oh okay, never thought anything of it. Gay relationships were actually introduced to me through anime, yaoi, and I did see yuri as well, but not until I was older. I don't know why, I just never found them. Not that they were actively hidden from me, maybe they just weren't as popular in the west. Anyways, the point is, it was never weird to me. Even when I was introduced to it.

 

Navigating Attraction and Labels

Mackenzie: There's a couple notes I made in there about never having crushes. I never had crushes growing up and I didn't really understand why for a very long time. I only had female friends. I just remember being attracted to anybody that was very ambiguous. And if there was ever a question about what someone's gender would be, I was very attracted to that. And then that is a big piece that had me considering attraction in general and previous relationships I agree with you. I never really cared about labels. It's such a spectrum of experience. I don't think there has to be a certain set of roles. Along the way, I've most closely identified pansexual, asexual, demisexual, and that spectrum of queerness explains my experience best. But at the same time, it doesn't matter to me. Life happens as life happens. The obsession with the whole gender thing, same with sexuality. It's all very funny when you think about it in that way, just let people do what they want to do because that is what being human is. There's so much cool research about non-binary and gender way beyond our current society that is like we're just humans and there is so much variance in how that comes about especially with intersex. It just doesn't make sense to binary everything.

 

Gender Identity and Neurodivergence

Amanda: How would you say your ADHD does intersect with your gender identity? Would you say it makes it easier or harder?

Mackenzie: Oh yeah. 

Amanda: When I say it, it can mean ADHD or your gender identity, so whichever you feel is more appropriate for the question.

Mackenzie: I think it makes it easier. The more that I am able to feel comfortable in my experience, the more comfortable I am in those other parts of myself and allowing myself to adapt to whatever those parts are needing. 

Amanda: For me, I never questioned my identity in terms of gender, but my Autism. I wouldn't say it makes my gender identity clearer or more ambiguous, but I would say it's given me a lot of self confidence and assurance. I can stand my ground in an argument a lot better.

Mackenzie: True, yeah.

Amanda: I can speak for myself more, again, it's the confidence. I wouldn't say it has anything to do with gender identity, if I'm being totally honest.

Mackenzie: Totally, I mentioned this as I was reading. Unmasking Autism, the author. I forget their full name, Devin something. Their experience coming into their gender identity and Autism is very similar to mine and I'm sure a lot of people. I think there's such a huge correlation between that journey for the reason of always feeling different when you are able to work with those pieces of yourself. It becomes easier to be yourself and stand up for yourself and other people. And, yeah,

Amanda: Definitely. 

 

Rejection Dysphoria and Imposter Syndrome

Amanda: So, for question six, I feel like we went into this a little bit, but have you ever questioned your autistic or ADHD needs due to the rejection dysphoria or imposter syndrome? 

Mackenzie: Absolutely.

Amanda: Yeah, I'd like to talk about any of that and I think I asked this question. I ended up adding this second part to part question six because of silver and limes, but did you ever experience gender gatekeeping from either cis trans or other communities because of your gender identity? Feel free to break down that question any way you want.

Mackenzie: So what I had written down here about the first part of that question about rejection dysphoria and imposter syndrome. It's like, when you're living on the edge of anything, or when you have identities that you've been masking for so many years, that just becomes a huge piece. I've had these conversations with a lot of people around my hard of hearing identity. About not feeling accepted into the hearing world, not feeling accepted into the Deaf world and in terms of Autism and ADHD. Then chronic health issues, the disabilities related to chronic health issues, all three of those things very much do this dance in between some days, you know, you're able to function better than other days. And constantly questioning your experience, the reality and the validity of your experience leads to a lot of imposter syndrome because you do so much to survive and when you're not able to tend. We might have to come back to that question because I'm losing my articulate ability. In terms of rejection, sensitive dysphoria, it is so debilitating. 

 

Challenges of Seeking Accommodations

Mackenzie: Like when you're finally able to speak up about your needs and then have that experience go to absolute s**t! It's so hard to ever wanna do that again, to ever speak up for yourself and ask for your needs to be met. I've talked about that a lot in terms of my heart of hearing identity. That was definitely my first different identity besides being female I guess. As a kid, that was something that was diagnosed for me in first grade and I started receiving accommodations for. So a lot of my experience comes from the fact that anytime I would ask someone to accommodate a hearing need and have that not be respected and experience a lot of bullying, arrogance, and ignorance around it. It made me feel like I always have to mask myself as a hearing person. And even if I don't understand anything, I work so hard to make sure that I'm understanding people. Most of the time I'll walk away from an in person interaction and only have about half an understanding of what was really going on. So I've always sought out connections with people that are very one on one because it's a lot less to navigate and it's a lot easier to engage with someone in that way. But yeah, it's hard to speak up and talk about your needs when it's never been a great experience because it's just traumatic to be quite honest. It goes into your body as a trauma response and it's extremely debilitating and I remember preparing for this conversation. I had to have accommodations for an entire month. I went non verbal. I did research for three weeks. I was writing all over my mirrors, whiteboards, and notebooks because I have been invalidated so much throughout my life that I wanted to make sure that I was able to say what I needed to say. And even in that moment, I completely blacked out. And I do that in most interactions. I black out and I was sweating. I was red and it shouldn't have to be this debilitating just to ask for what I need, so anything you want to add about that.

Amanda: Well, first of all, My experience and honestly your experience, just going to D.A.S. dehumanizing process of getting accommodations. Feel free to sign up for that podcast because I feel like you and I will have a lot of interesting tidbits there. It's basically going to be an entire session of ripping the D&A process and seeking accommodations to shreds.

Mackenzie: Well, not only that, like I've talked about this with a few other advocates and leaders as I really want to have this space for people to talk about success stories with access and accommodation. I think it's important to highlight things that have worked for people or like people that have been really accommodating and what that looks like. 

Amanda: I have success strategies that can actually help people increase the likelihood of getting accommodations beyond paperwork. There actually are specific neurotypical strategies that I've discovered and have used and works pretty well for the most part. I can't promise it'll work every time. It's like how to work the neurotypical system against them and to our advantage. 

Mackenzie: Yeah, that's great. I just think it's important to highlight those moments. People didn't have to work so hard to be accommodated. Just having it set up for people that go through different experiences instead of it being a very traumatizing debilitating process to get those differences to be met in the first place. And, I don't know. I think with neurotypical people, they just don't know how to do things differently. And it'd be nice to be able to present people with opportunities to read about.

Amanda: To be honest, it goes back to that really toxic mindset of thinking they're doing us a favor by forcing us to be normal. It really does just come back to that, so that's why I use literal examples or use a disability they have against them. Like, a lot of people have chronic pain or fatigue. Other conditions that they're used to being accommodated for. But when I put it into the context of their own condition, that's when they get light bulbs and that's when they realize they're being ableist. You can present as much reading as they want, but to be honest with you, my experience is that it just goes over their heads or they don't care.

Mackenzie: Yeah.

Amanda: I'm not trying to demoralize you, but I think it's a lot more direct to just lay it on, this is what you're doing, stop.

Mackenzie: yeah.

Amanda: And going back to the question about rejection dysphoria or imposter syndrome. I can't say I've ever really experienced a rejection dysphoria. Honestly, but imposter syndrome, again, I don't think I have ever felt that either because I know who I am. I'm pretty self confident in who I am. I have a lot of self assurance of who I am and my response is just to fight. So if someone tries to question my experience. I'm like, who are you to question my experience? You're not my body. You're not my head. You're either going to do your job by listening to me and providing accommodations, or we're going to have a problem.

Mackenzie: It's funny though because my response has always been to run and to fawn. You don't have the experience throughout your life of those moments when you were able to stand up for yourself. And when it went well, I had sort of mentioned the constant reinforcement of being honest with someone about something or I'm telling them what I need. I'm being vulnerable and talking about my experience and then to be completely invalidated. It makes you never want to talk about it ever again and it's not fair.

Amanda: Yeah, and I'm not trying to talk about my natural response to make you feel bad. It's just, growing up, I remember the only times I felt truly powerful and listened to was when I screamed. And forced people to listen to me. I metaphorically got them down to my level, got them by the throat, and just made them listen to me. And that's when I got results. It didn't always strictly work, but the situation never got worse. And it definitely got to a point of stability whenever I did that. Sometimes the situation actually did improve. Again, I'm not trying to make you feel bad or anyone else feel bad for their natural responses because those just come from childhood survival techniques. So that's where my response comes from I guess. Just the fact that the only time I ever really felt powerful was when I did confront someone.

Mackenzie: I've done that a lot over the years but it was never verbally. It was always written out. When I feel really frustrated and need to communicate with someone. I would write them a letter explaining my experience and my feelings. It's always been a good response and very  similar in that way of empowerment. I need that extra time to process things. I'm not always able to do things at the moment. I've always had a hard time with words. I figure out what it is that I really want to say, especially when you're dealing with people that are very defensive. I think a lot of times, especially in regards to autism. It's with the tone of voice and also, with what you're actually saying. What I want to say is often not what I mean just because I'm picking from very limited vocab options at the moment. So tone of voice mixed with intention matching the form of what you're saying. I think writing has always helped me be able to solve those issues. It takes away those aspects that are often misunderstood.

 

Cultural Perspectives on Gender

Amanda: Yeah, question seven goes into research a little bit about recent trends with the nonbinary community. Thank you. Are you surprised that the community has an increasing number of its members getting diagnosed with autism or ADHD? Why or why not?

Mackenzie: I'm not at all surprised by that. It goes back to something my doctor told me and some reading and research I've done on my own. But one reason I started seeking out autism diagnosis was because my doctor had told me that there is such a high correlation between autistic individuals identifying as nonbinary, gender nonconforming, et cetera, Along with a lot of the chronic health issues I've been diagnosed with throughout the years. And I was like, okay, that makes a lot of sense. The notes I had done about these questions are things that are already talked about so giving people the language framework and the story to connect to things from a younger age so that people don't have to discover these things later in their life. For myself, there's a high correlation between coming into my gender identity and autistic identity as well.

Amanda: For me, I actually did some research on this question. I forget which study this was from or which article but this actually sums up why there are so many people with autism and ADHD who are nonbinary. I said this earlier, we're just essentially rejected by our peers and authority figures that we're forced to develop our own survival methods and then it just rejects social norms that don't work for us. And a lot of times that does go with gender norms or gender rules, whatever you call it and of course we would reject all those BS gender rules. That makes total sense.

Mackenzie: And what's especially affirming to me is the fact that I have been questioning this as long as I can remember in terms of my own journey with gender identity. The fact that I've never wanted to follow the rules in that way. A lot of neurodivergent people experience growing up differently. It primes you for accepting the difference and not wanting to conform to these things and these systems that just don't make sense that go against the natural order and ways of the world. I like to turn to nature a lot to explain things and to explain how things work obviously. You know, when it's really stormy and the weather is really intense. That's just part of the natural world, nobody's gonna question that. So why do you question when people have moods and things that happen in a similar fashion, like, it just happens. There's a reason why, but I don't know. Frame it a lot like when you go against the rules, the laws of nature in general, you're just setting people up for failure and illness because it just doesn't make sense to go against it. I guess that's what I'm saying.

Amanda: Another thing I would say about that is, not just nature horses, but a lot of other cultures actually have more than two gender identities. I think the most well known ones internationally are Thai ladyboys. I forget what the actual term for them is in Thai, but it's so well known and famous that it was featured in the Hangover movie series.

Mackenzie: Right, I remember that.

Amanda: So many other cultures throughout history have had third genders or even more than three genders. So, I don't know if it's specifically a modern Western society thing where only two genders are really that part of the main conversation, or this just stems back to something else, but I don't know why that's just so hard to conceptualize because it's not like more than two genders are unique. In fact, I think it's actually a lot more common to have more than two genders.

Mackenzie: I've been seeing so much about that too. I want to dive into more personal research, but even like pre Nazi Germany. There is a lot of gender research about the spectrum of gender, the experience of gender outside of the binary gender, and how a lot of that research was destroyed in World War II.

Amanda: That's interesting.

Mackenzie: But I want to do a little more digging and read more about that. In general, but yeah, a lot of indigenous and native cultures, and other cultures outside of American Western modern society regard people outside of these genders and it's so frustrating and fascinating to me. I'm like, who decided that there was just one story that was the truth throughout our history in America and then, this is the way it is. Let's hear some other stories because that's not the only story.

Amanda: Or take into different cultural norms and just accept the fact that this is a concept that has been proven and it's valid.

Mackenzie: And even before I was diagnosed with ADHD. It makes so much sense why people are diagnosed with this because damn it, I lost my train of thought.

Amanda: It's okay.

Mackenzie: I know it's just really frustrating. It happens a lot. I have all these words and thoughts streaming through my head all at one time. And then you go to say it. There's just nothing. It's very frustrating. But anyway, what was I talking about?

Amanda: I don't know. We were talking about Western modern society and how it's normal for countries outside of that to have three genders. Like I brought up Thailand as an example.

Mackenzie: Oh yeah, that. Okay, so there's collectivist cultures and then there's individualist cultures. America is very much an individualist culture but I can't remember the percentage. I think about 60 or 80 percent of the world's cultures being collectivist and how that makes a lot more sense. In terms of when people are neurodivergent, it becomes about community, care, and supporting everybody. It's not about individual success. It's about collective success. It's not focused on clock time, it's on connections between people instead of these rules of the way to do things, professionalism, being on time, and all of these dualist ways. And they're like, you can't do this on your own. That means you're a failure. It's like, no. I just don't have the support that I need. And so it becomes a very isolated experience. Then that leads to all this mental health s**t! And in the end, is it really a mental illness? Like I've been diagnosed with probably ten or so different mental health diagnoses. It was probably just Autism manifesting itself the whole time and meltdowns, shutdowns. You know, nervous system dysregulation, all this stuff, right? And yeah, I don't know. It's frustrating.

Amanda: I'm not going to comment too heavily on other cultures, but I do want to say something about the collective culture. I'm not sure what you mean by collective in this sense, but I will say other cultures I am familiar with, especially in East Asia. They are collective in the sense that they do value society over the individual but that creates a lot of toxicity for people with individualistic needs like Autism and it makes them a lot less likely to accommodate. I have a lot of criticism in America in this conversation obviously but. I will give America credit in the sense that they do at least recognize Autism and that there is at least official recognition for accommodations. ADHD is included in that as well. Whereas if you go to countries like the Netherlands there’s an awareness of Autism, but they're still like this, not collective. They very much approach accommodations as a blanket method where they just say no, the individual doesn't matter.

Mackenzie: Got it!

Amanda: At least that was what I personally experienced and heard about when I was in the Netherlands with my wife, but I'm not trying to speak for all of the Netherlands obviously. Or it's like France, I don't even think Autism is still very much recognized as just a disability. You're just an invalid kind of thing. So again, I'm not trying to derail your argument, but there's a lot of holes in collective society as well as individualistic ones.

Mackenzie: Totally. I also like to say things about that. my worldview is still very small. There's a lot of reasons why I haven't been able to go out and experience different cultures and whatnot. 

Amanda: It's just that there's different weaknesses in individual versus collective.

Mackenzie: And there always will be. 

 

Stereotypes and Empathy in Autism

Mackenzie: I think that's interesting, the piece you mentioned. You know, a common stereotype of Autism is that people are very selfish and only focused on themselves. So I wanted to ask you about your experience with that throughout your life. Do you feel that stereotype is true or what is your argument against that?

Amanda: I guess I'm trying to figure out what you mean by selfish because to me. Human beings, in general, are a selfish species. We just are. Can you provide a little more context before I answer?

Mackenzie: Yeah, there's just so many stereotypes out there that autistic people are only focused on themselves. Even the sign language signs related to autism are very much related to that sort of internal focus on self and not able to empathize 

Amanda: I wouldn't say that autistic people are any more selfish than any other human being. It goes back to the fact that there's a lot of invisible social roles we miss. So we respond in ways people aren't really expecting us to respond to. In terms of my experiences with that, I just remember getting into a lot of arguments with people about my reactions to tragedy or just situations with breakups or every other personal thing that I'm supposed to have some kind of reaction to. Like, give an example to someone dying. That was a friend of my mom's or connected to her in some way. My condolences are there but I just don't have a big emotional reaction to it. I don't know the person and let's see. I think I brought this up before with that organization I wanted to volunteer for, but I decided not to because of this interaction. Honestly, I don't know. This woman was just trying to harass me and I'm like look: I'm autistic. If there was some kind of miscommunication, I said, let's just talk about it. And she sends me an article about an autistic organization member and this has nothing to do with our conversation. Put on your big girl pants and apologize to me.

Mackenzie: Yeah.

Amanda: It's just we're responding in a way that people just aren't expecting. And to me, the media aspect of autism I would say. The characters I've seen are portrayed as selfish. They just react to different things, like Young Sheldon. I think, is a little bit of an exception quite frankly. I think the research writing was terrible on that one, especially because Big Bang went back and forth about whether or not Sheldon was autistic or not. I don't even think they've officially said it or not, they just made him as autistic as possible in Young Sheldon. Which really bugs the crap out of me.

Mackenzie: I don't remember it ever coming out in shows.

Amanda: What happened was they just leaned into Autism because it was becoming a trend and that really pisses me off when the media does that because that just means it's a bunch of superficial research probably from Autism speaks.

Mackenzie: Right.

Amanda: So I don't know if I answered your question but I would say that the stereotype is that we just overreact rather than that we're selfish. At least that's my interpretation of it. What people miss a lot of times is the fact that we are trying. We actually are very empathetic and I feel like people don't really have any empathy towards us.

Mackenzie: I think sometimes empathy can get the best of me. I have to shut down. I'm so sensitive to people living around me that I just adopt and absorb their energy. Then I try to accommodate, then I completely ignore my own needs because I'm so focused on accommodating other people living alone. It definitely helps me with that but I'm learning to communicate my needs which is great. It's just a funny thing to me because everybody is focused on themselves. Everybody is selfish. And when you do the work to really understand yourself and your experience in the world, it leads you to be such a better community member and able to show up for other people. I've never really understood why it's a bad thing to be selfish and speak up for your needs. 

Amanda: Well, I think it goes back to that compliance thing and it's kind of funny that Western culture, especially America, is kind of considered individualistic because I think we all operate on a collective mindset. The only evidence you need to see that is in church groups. There's very much this whole we have to be the perfect church going at least once a week, white picket fence. We have Bible studies every week or whatever. We have to basically do whatever we have to, to prove we're good Christians. Whatever that looks like in each individual church. Another example is putting family first where we're just forced to swallow a bunch of trauma issues we have with specific family members for the sake of keeping the peace. And whenever a blowout does happen, it's always on the victim to be the bigger person. By the way, I hate that. Why is it on the victim to be the bigger person and not the person who actually started it? 

Mackenzie: Yeah, I don't know. 

Amanda: I think that's funny because again, human beings as a species are selfish. We just are. There's multiple studies that say that. And second off, there's a difference between being selfish and being evil. Being evil is taking selfish action directly to hurt someone intentionally.
Speaking up for your needs or doing what you have to, to survive, that's not selfish. That's not evil, I mean, sorry.

Mackenzie: It's okay. I just wanted to bring up the church thing and how I didn't grow up with church. That's never in my framework when I talk about things, but I think it's interesting how Christianity in particular is woven into the fabric of American culture. But I don't really associate religion with the larger society of things, even though it very much is and I always forget about that. So thank you for bringing that up because church culture, that's not American culture. But how are they really separate in the end?

Amanda: Depends on where you live.

Mackenzie: Yeah, exactly. I didn't grow up in church.

Amanda: My mom tried. It did not work. She tried to raise me in church. It never worked. I just did not care. I was so bored. When someone told me I was going to hell when I was six years old, my response was: okay and walk away.

Mackenzie: My parents let us choose what we wanted to do with that on our own. 

Amanda: I know I have said this before but I always felt like I was in a madhouse in church. Whatever you call that room with the pews where people were touching air with their eyes closed as the guy was singing, or, talking about something. You're touching the air. What are you doing?

Mackenzie: It was a very interesting experience. 

Amanda: So I'm just going to ask the last question. 

 

Final Thoughts and Reflections

Amanda: What do you want the public to know about your Autism or ADHD and how it influences your life as a binary, non-binary person, or what do you just want the audience to know in general from this conversation? Maybe that would be a better one to end with.

Mackenzie: It's always a hard thing because I get very overwhelmed with all the things I want to say. So I want to start out by asking: From this conversation today, for you, what do you think was the most enlightening piece that stuck with you the most? I want to see if that sparks anything for me. 

Amanda: It was definitely how you brought up the language aspect and exposure to childhood because it kind of actually did make me think about why it took me so long to actually realize I was attracted to women. I never thought about that as a kid. There was never any homophobia despite going to church regularly. At least not language wise but I never saw anything outside of heterosexual couples. I didn't know it was an option. And even when I saw relationships like Yaoi gay relationships in anime, it was always that fantasy aspect. I didn't really connect it to real life. It's not that I didn't think it didn't happen in real life. There was just no cognitive jump to real life if that makes sense. So it's interesting thinking. I just never thought about that aspect in my childhood at all. I think I'm the only queer person on my mom's side of the family and I don't know. I guess I'm queer, let's just say for the sake of simplification of this conversation, sure. Did I answer your question or not?

Mackenzie: It definitely did. And I tend to black out or have holes in my memory when I'm having conversations. So I do like to gather perspectives from other people. What did you get from our conversation? And what was your perspective? From some of the things. but I think that is so important. Yes, I agree. It's having the language and having representation going back to what you had talked about. The Big Bang Theory and Young Sheldon. If there are going to be things in the media about a particular identity or community, it needs to be a person experiencing that playing that role. Because it's really important for children to have the language and the role models that they can connect to. It leads to people being able to understand their experience from a younger age and I think it would lead to less mental health issues and navigating puberty and young adulthood. In general, I just think about all the people that never learned how to be themselves and how much they take it out on other people. It's just not fair in the long run. 

Amanda: When you say that, are you talking about like closeted gay or lesbian people, in heterosexual relationships, married or something? 

Mackenzie: Yes. I'm talking about Autism, ADHD, and mental health. Whatever it is that is causing someone to not feel accepted or a part of the world. Feeling like that experience is not valid or that they have to accommodate everybody else. I guess what I'm saying is the more that we can expose and have frameworks for people around being different. Moreover, our society can heal, grow, and work through a lot of the issues with inequality and inequity that we face on a daily basis, especially when it comes to people of color, racism, and, all the issues around trans, it doesn't make any sense to me. And the whole idea of body autonomy and the government trying to control people's bodies. What is the point of that? Why are people so threatened with people being themselves? 

Amanda: Me, oh, I was making a joke. Me teacher, me, sorry.

Mackenzie: That's okay. 

Amanda: I have an answer to that actually and I was just being smarmy a little bit.

Mackenzie: It's okay.

Amanda: Just to answer your question and closing this out. To me, when people attack others for their identity, regardless if it's sexuality, gender, religion, race, whatever. It's because they're so insecure with their own identity that they have to project onto others. That really is what it comes down to and the fact that they don't understand how the world is changing and they're left behind, feeling more and more irrelevant. So they feel like they have to latch on tighter and tighter and suffocate the very people that are even trying to support them. Ultimately, what happens is people that support their ideas are going to turn on them. Eventually their control is going to trickle down to them.

Mackenzie: I think you said that very well. I've been having a lot of thoughts around that lately. So to close it out too, just believe people in their experience and validate them in their experience. If you witness things that oppress people further. Just the more you can do individually as a culture to challenge people and ask them why they think that way. The more that we can heal and grow. 

Amanda: Well, thank you very much, Mackenzie. I hope to have you on another podcast coming up.

Mackenzie: Yeah, thank you for starting these talks. I think they're super important and I love to see your process in digging into the reason behind the talks, the questions, and I look forward to future conversations.

 

Outro Disclaimer

Michelle: Thank you for listening to Let's Talk. Portland Community College's broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let's Talk podcast collective as a collaborative effort between students, the accessible education, and disability resources department, and the PCC Multimedia department. We air new episodes on our home website, our Spotify channel, XRay 91.1 FM, and 107.1 FM, and KBOO Radio 90.7 FM.